Summary of How to Pick Academic Opportunities
Daniel Boulos, Academic Relations Specialist for Pioneer, introduced the participants in this panel discussion focused on how to choose co-curricular activities: Adam Sapp, Assistant Vice President and Director of Admissions at Pomona College; Chris LaTempa, Director of College Counseling at Moorestown Friends School; and Gregory Manne, Senior Manager of Selection and Global Outreach for Rise.
The first question concerned common misperceptions about the relationship between co-curricular programs and the college admissions process. Sapp noted that one misperception is that there is one kind of applicant that colleges are looking for. He encouraged students to connect their learning and their extracurricular life in ways that interest them. “You know why you’re pursuing it, you’re the one putting in the time and the work, so you want to like it,” he said. “Extracurricular profiles for students all look different, and they should.”
LaTempa added, “An admissions rep at a highly selective institution once told me, ‘We are looking for students who are interested and interesting.’” Colleges, he suggested, are looking for students who are interested in something particular. Asking deep, thoughtful questions, and finding ways to pursue answers “can really elevate an application.” Manne noted that Rise is intended to help 15 to17-year-old students do exactly that: identify “the intersection of what I enjoy doing, what I’m good at, and what society might need from me.”
Boulos noted that 16 to 17-year-olds should not be expected to have a fully formed idea of what they want to do for the long term, and asked how might a student who is uncertain leverage that uncertainty when looking for extracurricular activities.
Manne recommended that students join great communities and see what others are doing and thinking in a wide range of fields. From the perspective of an admissions officer, he suggested interesting applicants can speak about things they have tried. “We want to know who you are. We don’t want you to tell us what you think we want to hear.” LaTempa added that “over 50% of students who choose a major going into college will not graduate with that exact major.” Learning what you want to pursue is what college is for.
How should students evaluate possible programs? Sapp shared that choosing a program is a math problem, he said: “It is your interest, plus your time, plus everything else you’re doing, and that equals how you’re going to make these decisions.” Manne offered a check list of questions. “Do I like what I’m doing? Do I like who I’m doing it with? Am I learning and growing?” If the answer is “yes” to all three, you’re in the right spot, and two out of three generally means a positive experience.
A student participant asked whether it was possible to continue enjoying a passion for the arts, but pursue “soft sciences” in the future. Sapp said, “That is precisely the kind of intellectual balance that you will find at a liberal arts college.”
Daniel Boulos 0:00 I’m back. I hope everyone out there enjoy the program fair and the college fair. We are back with our next panel discussion which is all about choosing co-curricular academic programs. We are joined by Adam Sapp, who is Assistant Vice President and Director of Admissions at Pomona College. Chris LaTempa who is the Director of College Counseling at the Moorestown Friends School. And Gregory Manor, Mani, who is the senior managers selection and global outreach at Rhys. So we’re really delighted to have all these folks with us this afternoon. And we’re going to be talking today about how students can navigate, you know that that vast maze of co-curricular academic programs out there. Like our last panel, we’ve got just about 30 minutes. So I want to just dive right into the discussion. And I want to start with a question to kind of talk about the elephant in the room when we’re talking about co-curricular programming. Right. And that is to say that I think when a lot of students are looking at co-curricular programs, one of the questions they’re considering is the impact that these experiences will have on their college applications. Right? How, you know, how will they you know, what, what will they convey to the admissions officer, what programs might, you know, might get might be a better boost for their application? And so, I wanted to start and I think Adam is probably the best person to start with, with this question based on where he’s where he sits in the world. And I just want to ask, if there are perhaps some common misperceptions about the relationship between co-curricular programs and the college admissions process, for example, believing that a summer program housed within an elite university automatically adds a certain cachet to a student’s profile, right. Or the notion that getting published getting a paper published anywhere is going to move your application up a few a few levels in the stack of applications. So what are some of those common misperceptions? And and what do you think some people need to know about them? So Adam, we’ll start with you. And then I’d love to hear from the others, as well.
Adam Sapp 2:08 Yeah, I mean, I think I’m big. First of all, thank you for having me. And they’re convening this panel. I think the biggest misperception is just that there is some kind of a silver bullet out there that there is a sort of one thing that college admissions officers are looking for, or there’s, there’s sort of one version of an applicant that we like more than an other another version of an applicant. And, you know, I think that, to me, is something that I spend a lot of my time myth busting is that when you have thought a lot about what your interests are, and you’ve thought a lot about how your potential extracurricular activities, there’s always more things you can do that you have time to do. But when that potential list, when you’re trying to think about where are you going to spend your time? And how are you going to connect learning to your extracurricular life? That to me, those are sort of the central questions I think anyone begins with and honest answers to those questions, lead people in different directions, not in the same direction. And so the reality is that extracurricular profiles for students all look different, and they should. And for those that are pursuing, for example, academic research, or they’re pursuing something in the summer, or they’re pursuing student government, or community service, or athletics list could go on journalism, I was a big journalism guy in high school, what you hopefully want out of that, is that you are enjoying it, you’re getting something out of it, and you know, why you’re pursuing it. And ultimately, that rationale is the most important rationale because you’re the one putting in the time and the work. So you want to like it.
Daniel Boulos 3:51 I wonder, Chris, from your perspective, as a college counselor, I would imagine that you have a lot of these conversations with your students, you know, when you’re putting together their when you’re thinking through, you know, their, their path through their, you know, through their high school experience, but then also how they, how they presented on the application, what, what thoughts might you have on question.
Chris LaTempa 4:11 And then mission rep at a highly selective institution once told me, we are looking for students who are interested and interesting. So basically, what that means is students who are pursuing their own unique interests, things they find compelling to them, and taking the means to go out and pursue those curiosities. So I think whatever avenues are presented, to be able to discover more what you’re interested in as a student and taking the means to go and dig a little deeper into any area of curiosity that you find compelling, whether that is on a campus with a college professor, whether that’s on your own time doing your own independent research, I think colleges are really looking for you to show that you have an interest in something deeper, something academic, and that you, you know, have the propensity to follow that. And, you know, throughout my work with students, I’ve seen those who are really asking deeper, thoughtful questions, questions that matter to them, and that they find meaningful, and then taking on that extra step of going to find those answers how best they can and, you know, 16, 17, 18 years old, I don’t think there’s the expectation that you’re going to find the answers. I mean, we’re not looking I think, for students to, you know, I achieve published work that is going to be groundbreaking in the field, that would be phenomenal. But I think it’s just asking those questions and taking the means and the interest to find those answers, you know, can really elevate an application what I’ve seen.
Daniel Boulos 5:52 Right, yeah and I think that’s something that that is underestimated, I think in the minds of a lot, a lot of folks out there, like in the Pioneer program, for example, one of the things when we’re going through our admissions process, one of the factors that we wait most heavily is evidence of the student’s like authentic interest in doing research for the sake of doing research, because our program is so demanding that if the students are deeply invested in that, they’re not going to be successful. You know, it just it’s just the level of work required just requires that deep cut that kind of deep investment. Greg, I would like to hear your perspective on this question from the perspective of someone who works with a program that seeks to identify students and kind of support them through their journey when you’re seeking students or when you’re considering students for the rights program. What are some of the things that that you are looking for? I mean, I’m assuming, you know, academic performance is certainly one of them. But surely, there’s a lot more that goes into the equation. And I wonder if you might talk a little bit about what that is. And also maybe just give a quick overview of what Rise is for those who may not be familiar with the initiative.
Gregory Manne 6:58 Yeah, thanks Dan. I want to just echo some of what Adam and Chris have said, I think it’s that concept of students that are interested in students that are interesting, I think would Rise but we offer you the ability to do is figure out what it is you’re interested in, and to develop what you’re interested in into benefiting other people or solving society’s most pressing problems. That’s what Rise is and at the end of the day, actually, to your to your question, then we don’t add, we don’t look at traditional academic metrics. So Rise a program that trying to innovate on talent identification in the space of 15 to 17 year olds, while simultaneously offering an inherently beneficial application process and access to a global community of other youth who are in the 15 to 17, kind of junior sophomore, junior senior year of high school age range, to everyone who participates. So Rise seeks to identify talented individuals in that age range and support them so that they’ll use their talents for social impact in the future. What Rise allows many youth to do especially those that are kind of early on in their high school process is figure out “Okay, here’s the intersection of what I enjoy doing, what I’m good at, and what society might need for me”, that’s what we’re trying to support youth in doing by helping them find purpose. And there’s a lot of research out there that shows that youth who have purpose and people who have purpose are much more successful academically are much more socio-emotionally, healthier, happier, and so Rise help support students through our platform, which you can check out on this link, which I’ll just put in the chat there. For those that are interested in, you go on you join our community. And then you develop a social impact project using your talents. And you don’t do this kind of blindly similar to Pioneer, you’re going to be given an opportunity to develop this through a curriculum through workshops that we offer through experience with our global community. So everyone who signs up gains access to our Discord platform, and they’re able to connect with other youth all over the United States all over the world. We have youth from over 170 countries in our network in order for them to talk about, think about ways that they may use their talents for good in the future. And so we have youth who embark on a variety of different projects. Just to give a quick example, we have youth who use kind of arts, arts mobility, stem, stem mobility in order to address a variety of different issues. So we had one youth who in the United States had experienced homelessness in her past. And so she put together an animated series and podcasts all written and directed and voiced by others youth who had experienced homelessness. And they kind of talked about that experience from the perspective of those that have experienced it and been through it. We have other youth who have done research projects using data to predict earthquakes to predict floods in flood zones. There’s lots of ways that you may use different talents for good and so Rise helps you embark on that process.
Daniel Boulos 9:40 Excellent. Thank you. Um, so that, that actually brings me to another question that I was thinking about. You were talking, Greg about identifying students who have a clear sense of purpose. And I think it’s important to kind of distinguish that from what I think is one of I think it’s one of the most damaging notions out there. or when it comes to the idea of college admissions is this notion that at 16 or 17 years old, you’re expected to have a fully formed idea of what you want to do, you know, for the long for the long term and how you’re going to get there. And I think that that’s something that I think can put a lot of students in a pretty uncomfortable position. And so what I want, and I think it’s fair to say there, there are many, many people out there who do find a certain calling at a very young age, but I don’t think that’s the case for for most people. And so I think the question I wanted to ask is, when we’re thinking about this question of seeking out academic opportunities beyond the classroom, right, and what advice would you have for a student who doesn’t quite know where they’re going yet? And how might they overcome that uncertainty? Or how might they even leverage that uncertainty when they’re actually looking for opportunities to pursue activities outside the school or the classroom?
Gregory Manne 11:12 I’m happy to start on this one if you’d like. I think what we want you to do so I mentioned our Discord earlier. So anyone who joins the Rise community, who joins our program who applies, they get access to a Discord platform. On the Discord platform, their channels, the channels, their channels around philosophy, in the environment, climate change, different academic subjects, history, political science, there’s chat for robotics. So you’re able to kind of just like, start to learn, start to hear, start to discuss. And I think that’s part of the experience, you don’t need to at the age of 15, 16, 17, even 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, even 28, 29, 30 know exactly what it is you want the rest of your life to look like. I think what’s important is that you’re out there pursuing things to Chris’s point originally, that you may find interesting or are interested in. And that just naturally by going through those processes by exploring those areas will make you a more interesting applicant. Because you can speak to here’s some of the things I’ve tried, here are some of the things I like, here’s some of the things I don’t like. And to have that happen organically is always better than to try to force the issue. I mean, I’m coming at this from a former admissions officer perspective, we want to know who you are, we don’t want you to tell us what you think we want to hear. And I think that’s just important to keep in mind. And I’ll put a quick link in the chat with some examples of Rise winners projects we’ve selected, but we invest not in the project and a winner. Right, in the human being who creates the project. A project is just an assessment tool we use kind of like Pioneer, it’s one research project. It’s not what you need to do for the rest of your life.
Chris LaTempa 12:51 I was working with a student last year, and he wrote his essay about how much he loves coffee. So right off the bat, you’re like, it has nothing to do with what he wants to study in college. He’s actually interested in computer science and computer engineering. But he has this fascination with coffee. So he writes about how his dad gets this espresso machine for Christmas one year. And it becomes his quest to develop the perfect cup of espresso. And he talks through the trial and error process and a lot of error like he talks through his failures early on. He talks about going into cafes, locally and even regionally traveling from cafe to cafe, interviewing baristas going on internet forums. And I think what really made this essay resonate was that he had a question, he was curious about something he was deeply interested in finding the answer. So there’s all kinds of reoccurring themes have been discussing already. But he goes to great lengths to find those answers. So to me, I, I love that it didn’t necessarily speak to a career ambition, he kind of tied it together in the end, like, I’d love to incorporate my interest in computer science and engineering. towards further, you know, it, you know, pursuing this quest for the perfect cup of coffee. But essentially, I think, you know, this goes back to colleges just wanting to see students who are curious, there’s a stat out there, that a majority, so over 50% of students, choosing a major going into college will not graduate with that exact major when they leave for, you know, five or six years later. So I don’t think colleges are really expecting students to know exactly what they want to pursue career wise. I think that’s what college is for, in many respects. So it’s more about demonstrating as a student that you are curious about something and can ask thoughtful, insightful questions. And, you know, can go out and find those answers or take the steps to find those answers. I did see one of the questions in the chat talking about like, you’re very, very interested in the STEM fields, but I want to study economics at the next level. I think that’s awesome, that’s great. Think about how you might really, you know, refer back to the experiences you’ve had in studying STEM and how they might connect to economics in some way. How might you study, you know, behavior or the movement of money and transactions within the STEM field. And that’s kind of getting at that intersection. So I love when students can identify, maybe not what they’re going to study necessarily what they’re interested in at a given point in time, and maybe connect that in some way to their future pursuits. But I would say it’s erroneous to guide your application, specifically and only toward a very narrow view of what you see your future being. And I acknowledge I’m coming at this from a very America centric I think point of view and American colleges, universities do tend to see want to see a well rounded picture. I think, colleges, universities, universities, and other countries may want to see more of a specific narrow academic focus, I know the UCaaS system, for instance, but even that I don’t think they’re looking so much at career ambition more as what specifically you want to study at university, and how you’ve demonstrated those interests.
Daniel Boulos 16:14 Yeah, so um, before I move on to the next question, I just want to take a moment, just let our audience know that in a few minutes, we are happy to take some questions from the audience. So if you have questions, if you want to go ahead and start typing those questions into the Q&A, in the Zoom, please go ahead and do that. And I will try to get as many of those answered as we can. But going back to our conversation here. You know, we’ve talked a lot about some of the philosophical perspectives of this topic, right? I identify, you know, knowing, starting from a place that you know, what’s important to you? What sparks your curiosity, representing that, you know, authentically in college applications, but I’d like to talk a little bit more nuts and bolts, right. So the, you know, in the blurb on the website for this panel, we describe this, as, you know, posing the question, how do students navigate the maze of programs that that are out there? And I think, I think that’s kind of an important question to address on a practical level in this conversation. So, you know, I think one of the reasons, you know, we use the word maze is because the market for co-curricular programming out there is pretty saturated, right? There are a ton of opportunities, whether it’s academic opportunities, athletic research, whatever. There’s a wide range of opportunities out there. And like, any market space, some sort, you know, some providers are better equipped to provide a quality service than others. Right. And so, I would ask, if you all have some thoughts, about a couple of things, one, what are what are the things that when students are looking at all of the opportunities out there when they’ve actually thought through some of the things that we’ve thought about to identify the types of opportunities that are right for them based on their interests and curiosity, as opposed to what’s going to bolster their college application, once they’ve made those decisions? And they know where they want, what they want to do? What are some of the things they should be looking at when they’re evaluating these programs? Like what are some of the hallmarks of high quality programs? What are some of the warning signs that a program might not be in their best interests to pursue? And then another, I think even more nuts and bolts question, where do they find these opportunities? Right? Where do they where do you even start to look for them? So I’ll open that up? To the entire panel? So whatever, whatever your thoughts on so how, how do students evaluate these programs? And then also, how do they find them?
Adam Sapp 18:50 I’ll jump in and just maybe talk about the first part of it and, and ask my colleagues to jump in after that. You know, I think the first thing is, if something is asking for a hefty fee to join, I would be suspicious, that’s usually not something that the quality programs do, they’re either low cost or no cost. If there are lots of different kinds of, I don’t know, expectations around they’re going to use you and your experience in some way that you’re not comfortable with. So there are there are definitely programs out there that will ask students for a lot of time and not really give you much of value. If you feel like you’re not learning something as you’re going through it. I think that’s probably a sign that then maybe it isn’t the most quality experience. And you know, I think the reality is, this is a math problem. It is your interest plus your time plus everything else you’re doing. And that equals how you’re going to make some of these decisions. Because at the end of the day, you’re still probably in I don’t know a handful 5, 6, 7, 8 classes depending upon your system around the world. These courses are taking up time as they should. Because your classroom work is going to take up time, you may have family responsibilities, or you may have school based extracurricular clubs that take up your time. And then you maybe you have a job, or maybe you have other family responsibilities that you have to pursue, or perhaps you have extracurricular activities that you started in ninth grade that you don’t want to stop doing. So how are you going to fit in new ones as you move through high school? So these are all things that you sort of have to, to navigate. But at the end of the day, I think my fundamental question would be, am I learning something? And if as you’re moving through high school, you’re joining clubs and organizations, you’re adding things on, you’re not learning anything from that, to me would be the ultimate red flag.
Daniel Boulos 20:48 Yeah. And before we turn to other panels, I just want to comment on something you said, Adam, and I think is really important is the fact that time is a part of that equation. Because I think one of the things that I think one of the misconceptions before and I think one of the misconceptions out there, when students are thinking about their academic profile is they need to have as many experiences on that resume as they can have. And that can actually ultimately work against them in the long run. Because I see the Pioneer sometimes, like the students in our program, who tend not to do well or not to have the best outcomes are the students who are just overextended. That’s something we see year in and year out, the students who end up floundering at the end of the program are those who have, you know, especially even in the summer, where they’re not in school, that’s the time they take on, you know, a seven different programs. Right. And, and so I think when you don’t factor in time into that equation, that it can have important con sequences.
Adam Sapp 21:43 Yeah, I think quality of your experiences, not quantity of your experience.
Daniel Boulos 21:47 Yeah. Excellent. Yeah. Um, did Chris record anything out there?
Chris LaTempa 21:52 I really liked how out Adam phrased this around experience, I think that’s the key, I think any program, any experience can hold value, but it’s really what you put in and what you get out. And I think there are, Dan, to your point, misconceptions about where that value comes from. So for instance, I remember when I was a senior high school, and I other students who do this to one of those like leadership conferences, they invite students from all over it is, quote, unquote, a pay to play. So this was held on a university campus. And I remember I was very interested in law. And this was like a pre law type program. So we got to do mock trial type activities meet kids from all over. Got also to sightsee around the city where the campus was, I don’t think that having that activity in and of itself added much value to my application, where I found value in it, I had an interest in law, but I wanted to learn more about what that practice might be like, I didn’t do like mock trial or anything when I was in high school. So this gave me that exposure, meeting different students. Again, like sightseeing, collaborating, there was value in that I ended up writing my own college essay about that experience. So again, I found value in it. But I don’t think just doing that experience in and of itself gave my application, any sort of boost on the activity section for instance. Similar, a lot of college campuses will host pre summer programs to where you can take a class or two, with college professors on that campus. And I don’t see that as sort of the silver bullet that puts a student over the top or gets them in, I think there’s value demonstrating maybe interest in that college or university, being able to talk about an experience and extended experience on that college campus might help when writing about why you’re applying to that college or university in the application. So there can be value there, maybe it’s giving exposure to a particular academic field that you didn’t know as much about. And now you’re learning more, now you can speak more deeply to why you’re interested in pursuing that field further. So again, those experiences may be giving value, but just saying that you participate in that program, I don’t know that that is adding the type of value that many students or families think it might.
Gregory Manne 24:12 Yeah, I think Chris and Adam have covered this pretty thoroughly, I have one other framework that you could consider thinking about that I kind of like, which is there’s three questions you can ask yourself, “Do I like what I’m doing? Do I like what I’m doing it with? Am I learning and growing?”. I think if the answer to all three of those is yes, you’re in the right spot. If the answer is two out of three, I think that’s also that’s good. When the answer is one or zero, then, you know, okay, I did something because I like the other people doing it, but I’m not learning and growing and I don’t enjoy doing it. That’s kind of silly. Right. And so I think that, that that framework is a framework was actually given to me by a mentor of mine around employment, but I used to use it also to talk about extracurriculars. Because like, if the answer to those three questions is yes, you’re definitely getting something out of it. And even if the answer is two out of three, you’re learning and growing and you like what you’re doing, but maybe you’re not best friends with everybody in the program. That’s okay. I think there’s still something to be gained from that.
Daniel Boulos 25:03 Okay. All right, so we just have about five minutes left. So I want to take a moment and just pull some questions out of the Q&A. I apologize in advance, because we’re not going to have time to get to all of them. But I will try to get to a few of them. And I want to start with this question from a student named Angel. And they write, “I am passionate in the arts, but I want to pursue soft sciences in the future. Can I still pursue these interests?”. I think they’re referring to their interest in the arts, can I still pursue these interests? Or should I look for other passions more closely related to STEM? Now, I’m not gonna ask any of you to answer that question like in terms of telling Angel what they should do. But I’m wondering if you might give some advice about how to think about that question. If you have any, any thoughts about that.
Adam Sapp 25:51 I would love to jump in. Because Angel, you must attend a liberal arts college, my friends, I mean, that that is precisely the kind of intellectual balance that you will find at a liberal arts college. And you’ll find that not only will you not have to choose, but you’ll be celebrated for not making the choice but actually choosing to study both, and for finding ways to think about both either independently or in an interdisciplinary way. And that you’ll find faculty who support your research and that you’ll find friends who are doing similar things in other intellectual spaces. So I would say you be you and find a school that will let you celebrate that.
Chris LaTempa 26:29 Great. Anyone else want to add anything to that?
I think that covers it well.
Daniel Boulos 26:39 Okay. Very good. Um, let me see here. Question, Greg, I have a question here for you. Jennifer asked if Greg could repeat the three questions to evaluate a program. You know what those are, Greg?
Gregory Manne 26:57 Sure. It’s “Do I like what I’m doing? Do I like who I’m doing it with? Am I learning and growing?”. It’s pretty straightforward. It’s not maybe the end all be all. But it’s a really good framework to just kind of reflect upon what you’re what you’re working on. I think a big part of what we think about it Rise. And what I encourage you to think about is just like to be reflective about the choices you’re making an intentional that was the word I used to use a lot when I worked in college admissions, like, Are you being intentional in this in the choices you make around the way you spend your time when you’re not in school, and you’re not doing your homework and you’re not sleeping? Because that’s the free time that you have, which isn’t a ton? So you want to be intentional about how you use it.
Daniel Boulos 27:31 Great. Um, let me see your other I think we have time for one more question. Actually, Greg, this one, this one was probably another one for you. Student Rights. I’m a Rise global finalist this year, and it wasn’t easy to find the opportunity, how do you recommend students to try to find these academic scholarship opportunities where they’re not as prominent in their country? So I think we’re, you know, I think for students who may not be situated in a country where a lot of this information is readily available? Where do students look for, for the stuff, especially if they’re not in in a country where these opportunities are highly visible?
Gregory Manne 28:18 Yeah, I mean, I think it’s it is more challenging, there’s more obstacles, there are more barriers to accessing these types of opportunities, especially outside the United States. For culturally, there may not be as much kind of history around doing activities outside of school, apart from kind of going home and just doing your homework and being with your family. So I think online is honestly one of the best ways. At Rise, one of the other things we’re trying to do and we’re a free platform, completely free to join, completely free to apply. We try to act as a clearinghouse of opportunity. So we have 65 partners and counting from around the world. And we’re constantly, if you join our Discord, we’re just posting, hey, you’re applying to rise also apply, you know, check out Pioneer, also check out lots of other partners of ours who offer opportunities that are that are free or have financial aid and are accessible for you outside United States. So again, you can join that there with the link in the chat. And then the other place, I would recommend, if you’re living outside the United States, Education USA, a lot of times they can pull you in the direction of some opportunities that you may not be aware of. So contact your local office there, check out their platforms online. I think there’s lots now in this day and age with Instagram and social media for you to find ways to get involved in things even if it has to be online. So yeah, I highly recommend kind of those pathways and learning about opportunities that way.
Daniel Boulos 29:35 Okay, great. Thank you very much. And with that we are exactly at time. And so I just want to take a moment to thank our panelists, Adam, Chris, and Greg, thank you very much. Great, great conversation. Apologies to those whose questions we did not get to but I appreciate you all taking the time to be with us today, both here on our panel and out there in the audience. So thank you all very much.
Gregory Manne 30:02 Thanks so much.
Chris LaTempa 30:03 Thank you.
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